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Post by Raider Grad on May 27, 2012 10:39:58 GMT -5
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Post by Big D on May 28, 2012 20:45:15 GMT -5
No, the Horizon is a 12-14 conference, with one recent year at 11. The OVC is between 18 and 24. That may be nitpicky, but taking Belmont out of the A-Sun and putting them in the OVC raises that conference's profile. What you're talking about now is this. Do Belmont and Murray State want to leave a conference that is easier to win than the Horizon League, gets the same amount of at-large bids, and does about the same in victories in the tournament? Oh and by the way, they will have a big increase in travel. Eastern Illinois is a trip. You put that out for their longest trip in the OVC, but think of it - Valpo, UIC, Loyola, Milwaukee, and Green Bay are all significantly further north compared to EIU. I don't call it nitpicky. I call it BS. The OVC has been ranked 21, 27, 20, 23, 28, 25, 20, 21, and 24 over the last 9 years. that is as far back as Realtime RPI goes. If they have finished as high as 18 it was a complete outlier. On average, they finish in the 20s, where as, the HL typically finishes in the low teens. The OVC has also consistently been a 1 big conference. The HL has shown that it has been able to put multiple teams into the dance for over 20 years even though the conference has had many different members. You asked, would Belmont and Murray State want to leave a conference that is easier to win than the HL. I think the answer is hell yes. The MVC is still only going to be a 1 bid conference even with the addition of Belmont. They might go from a conference ranked 20 to a conference ranked 18 with them. That is still a one bid conference and both of those schools have post season aspirations. If they go to the HL, which is a 12-14 ranked conference without them, the HL could jump into the top 10 and get a second team consistently into the dance. I think both of those schools would like to be in a conference where they at least have a chance at an at large bid. You might also want to take a look at google maps. Murray State's longest trip is currently to Jackson State in Alabama. It's an 8 hr and 11 minute trip. If you look up Murray State to Milwaukee, it is 8 hrs and 38 minutes. the travel isn't going to be as bad as you think, especially if the HL divides the conference into divisions like Green and Gold suggests.
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Post by bballraider on May 28, 2012 21:51:50 GMT -5
I like Robert Morris's basketball success, but one flaw they have is that they do not have baseball. I think the HL needs to add schools with baseball to solidify that sport in the HL, so that one school leaving would not jeopardize the automatic NCAA bid. This is the same problem with IUPUI being a possible candidate. If YSU were to leave, we would be a school short again in baseball even if we add Oakland to replace Butler. My guess is if we add additional schools in addition or in place of Oakland they would need to support baseball.
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Post by Rush the Court on May 28, 2012 22:08:20 GMT -5
I think that is why LeCrone talked about adding multiple teams. If we add 5 teams, not all of them need to have a baseball team. We can add 3-4 programs that do have baseball and 1-2 that will just enhance the HL in basketball.
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Post by Black PantherU on May 29, 2012 0:46:28 GMT -5
But D, you're forgetting that we're a 12-14 conference with Butler. What happens when Butler goes away? This year we were good, but back in my school's golden age, a bad Butler meant a bad conference RPI.
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Post by Big D on May 29, 2012 6:20:44 GMT -5
But D, you're forgetting that we're a 12-14 conference with Butler. What happens when Butler goes away? This year we were good, but back in my school's golden age, a bad Butler meant a bad conference RPI. I'm not forgetting anything. You are just vastly overestimating the importance of Butler to this conference's RPI. This was a down year across the board for the HL. We only had 2 teams barely make it into the top 100 and Butler was not one of them and we still finished 14th. You replace Butler with Oakland and we still finish 14th. You add any group of the multiple teams we have been talking about and we move up to a top 10 conference. You just aren't old enough to have perspective on this. It wasn't too long ago that we all joined the HL in the 1990s. The conference was in a much bigger state of flux then losing several key members to the league. It didn't stop any of us from making the move up from our previous conference. None of our schools were worried about the HL(MCC) taking a nose dive when those teams left. We all saw the HL as a conference that had the potential to be a multi-bid conference so we all made the jump. That was a much bigger risk than what we would be asking any of these schools to do today. We are losing 1 team that can be replaced from an RPI stand point. All we need to do is get the ball rolling. Add Oakland and the conference is stabilized. That makes attracting any of the other teams we want much easier. One other thing you should think about. The way the HL schedules has always hurt the HL's RPI. It has been hard for our teams to schedule the number of OOC games we have to play against good teams. With more conference members, we would be playing more conference games and less OOC games. Drop the bottom 2-3 OOC games from each HL member's schedule and replace that with quality teams like Oakland, Robert Morris, Murray State, etc and the whole conference's RPI goes up even more.
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Post by keithfromxenia on May 29, 2012 7:56:00 GMT -5
that is a lot of information, big d. and i agree with most of it. but it is very, very disingenuous of you to say/imply/suggest that the hl is a multiple bid conference. we have "consistently put multiple teams in the dance", at least in this century, almost only when butler lost in the tournament and someone else got the auto bid. has there been any team who got an at large since 2000 other than butler? if there has i cannot think of them. and butler is gone. as it is currently structured, + the addition of oakland or another, we will still be pretty much a one bid league.
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Post by Big D on May 29, 2012 16:53:47 GMT -5
that is a lot of information, big d. and i agree with most of it. but it is very, very disingenuous of you to say/imply/suggest that the hl is a multiple bid conference. Keith, The HL has hystorically been a 1-2 bid conference ever since it's inception. In the last 20 years we had 8 at large bids. Butler had the last 3, but the other 5 were other HL teams. If you look at those individual years where Butler got an at large bid, the HL team that won the automatic bid had a decent enough resume to be get an at large bid too. Milwaukee in 2002/03 could have gotten an at large bid and CSU in 2008/09 could have gotten an at large bid. I didn't look it up but I don't think the OVC, Summit League, or NEC received an at large bid between them in that time frame. As I previously stated in my last post, I think any team from a conference consistently ranked in the 20+ range would jump at a chance to join a conference that has shown the ability over time to get multiple bids fairly consistently even though the conference has had different members throughout the years. I think 8 bids in 20 years is pretty consistently and it also shows the potential for each of those schools looking to move up. 1992/93: Xavier, Evansville 1994/95: UWGB, Xavier1995/96: UWGB, N. Illinois 1997/98: Butler, Detroit, UIC2002/03: Butler, Milwaukee 2006/07 Butler, Wright State 2008/09: Butler, Cleveland State Bold = at large team
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Post by Black PantherU on May 29, 2012 19:11:26 GMT -5
Well, Big D, you've convinced me. Let's build a super-conference!
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Post by WrightStateFan on May 29, 2012 19:22:11 GMT -5
I saw an interesting tidbit on Oakland's message board. They re-did their arena floor recently with new logos and posted pictures of it on their website. What is interesting is that they didn't re-paint the Summit league logo on the floor. I don't know if that is wishful thinking on their part or they know they will be adding a HL logo to their floor real soon. Just some food for thought. goldengrizzlyhoops.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1111
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Post by OldSchoolHensley on May 29, 2012 19:34:52 GMT -5
So how will this change the schedule?
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Post by Raider Pride on May 29, 2012 19:57:18 GMT -5
So how will this change the schedule? If we add a new team for next year it won't change the schedule. If we don't, we probably won't have the 2 HL games in early December and we will have to find 2 more OOC games.
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Post by Black PantherU on May 29, 2012 20:39:46 GMT -5
From the ESPN Story, it definitely sounds like we won't be adding someone for 2012-13 and will be a 9-team league.
The HL also took down the Butler logo from their website.
Cool, Jon.
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Post by Doliboabros on May 29, 2012 20:48:22 GMT -5
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Post by bballraider on May 29, 2012 23:00:48 GMT -5
I'm not upset with the decision to deny Butler any chance at a championship, because the league has to move on, and start getting recognition for its remaining schools. And leaving Butler in just postpones the inevitable. And if Butler was to do well, it wouldn't help the HL reputation at all. It would help only the A-10s for next year.
With Butler leaving now, instead of next year, The HL now has 2 instead of 3 years to find a baseball replacement to keep the auto bid. (The grace period is 2 years to find a replacement.) That should not be a problem. I expect 9 teams in the HL next year, as the league will want to think this one out. Last time we needed a school to keep auto bids, I think they panicked and jumped on YSU too soon, and don't want to make the same mistake.
I still think we should grab Oakland now, and add more schools in a year or two. But how the HL plays this one out is anybody's guess.
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