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Post by mrose on Feb 16, 2014 21:08:46 GMT -5
Raiders41, interesting stats.
How do you know the execution isn't there this year? I don't think you can compare this years stats to last year's stats in a vacuum. The game is being called differently and overall scoring is up this year.
For instance, through Feb. 14 last year our defense averaged giving up 58.8 points--That ranked us #25. This year, through Feb. 13, we're ranked 3 spots better at #22, but allow 62.2 points. For the same time period last year we averaged 19.0 fouls/game...which ranked us at #263. This year we're almost committing one more personal foul/game at 19.9 but rank at #232.
The point I'm trying to make is, the game is being called differently this year--with an emphasis on hand checks, arm bars, and charges. That has led, on average, to more fouls being called and more free throw attempts and makes per game, which have in part led to higher average scores.
So, everything is relative. Last year at this time our Defense was ranked #25 and our offense #268. This year our defense has improved to #22, but our relative offense ranking as sunk to #285 (all rankings are points per game averages).
It is up to the coach to adapt and change his style of play to the way the game is being officiated.
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Post by uptempo on Feb 16, 2014 23:04:13 GMT -5
Uptempo basketball is fun for the fan to watch and also for the players. I think elite high school players would rather play in an uptempo system, instead of slow and plodding. WSU would attract better players if they played a more aggressive style of basketball. Right now WSU gets the kids who kinda hover between low mid major division 1 teams and division 2, and they decide to settle and go to WSU to play boring basketball in a respectable league, rather than play run and gun in a lower echelon league. Therefore: Uptempo equals = better recruits.
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Post by Raider Fanatic on Feb 16, 2014 23:20:29 GMT -5
Uptempo basketball is fun for the fan to watch and also for the players. I think elite high school players would rather play in an uptempo system, instead of slow and plodding. WSU would attract better players if they played a more aggressive style of basketball. Right now WSU gets the kids who kinda hover between low mid major division 1 teams and division 2, and they decide to settle and go to WSU to play boring basketball in a respectable league, rather than play run and gun in a lower echelon league. Therefore: Uptempo equals = better recruits. We all get that you aren't a Donlon fan and want a different style of ball at Wright State, but saying that we are recruiting kids that hover between low mid major D1 and D2 is beyond idiotic. We have a recruiting board that has a thread on all of our current players and recruits. Each kid's thread lists the other schools that have offered him. You might want to familiarize yourself with it. |
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Post by wsutommygun on Feb 16, 2014 23:28:49 GMT -5
Raider Fanatic, I thought Uptempo equals = better recruits meant that he was willing to bring in players on his own dime. Couldn't figure out why someone would be willing to post his intentions.
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Post by Dr J on Feb 17, 2014 0:00:09 GMT -5
How many great defensive players make it to the next level vs scores. Most of these kids would love to have the opportunity to play somewhere after college.
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Post by Raider Grad on Feb 17, 2014 10:36:16 GMT -5
How many great defensive players make it to the next level vs scores. That is a bs question. You are arguing that a player can't play great defense if they are a scorer. That isn't the case. I believe it is generally accepted that you will not play in a Brownell/Donlon system if you don't play great defense. These are the guys that have made money playing pro ball that have played in this system: DaShaun Wood, Todd Brown, Scottie Wilson, Vaughn Duggins, N'Gai Evans, Cory Cooperwood, Cooper Land, and Julius Mays. Playing great defense didn't stop them from being able to score or have a pro career. |
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Post by wsutommygun on Feb 17, 2014 11:42:01 GMT -5
Back when Ed was here, he said he thought the players would be happy shooting less than 10 shots a game. I thought that was crazy but, I also thought you needed a center...and with meat on their bones. I don't see why we can't have 4 or 5 averaging in double figures ( of course, I'd probably have a handful playing 30 minutes a game, which with our depth might explain why the averages aren't higher ). How can you take a game like Cole or AJ had and not be happy that they showed what they could do ( obviously just about everyone has proven from time to time good production ). Happy Birthday, AJ.
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Post by wolf41 on Feb 17, 2014 12:11:06 GMT -5
I think either system, i.e. emphasis on up tempo higher scoring OR ball control, strong defense, fewer points, can lead to an entertaining and exciting season. Some folks here have said the players haven't executed the game plans, thus giving us a disappointing season to date. I don't know that I buy that. Prior to the CSU game here at home our players were shooting .450 from the field, better than our opponents .429. We were shooting .343 from the arc versus their .323. We were shooting .748 from the line versus their .693. We were averaging 67.2 points per game versus their 61.8. And yet our record at that time was only 14-12. It is now 15-13, with perhaps our weakest schedule since we became a serious D-I team, that is post our first 3 years in transition to D-I..
Our only shortfalls in the statistics is that we are out rebounded by 2.3 boards per game, have had 15 more fouls, 19 disqualified players versus zero for our opponents, and 9 fewer blocked shots. Those few stats don't really tell me much. Although, in close games giving up more rebounds can be the difference in a game.
Of course if you look at the season game by game you do see that we had some very lopsided wins that contributed to our overall success in our winning games. We beat Mount St. Joe by 33 points. We beat Manchester by 50. We beat Houston Baptist by 16. We beat Alcorn State by 18. We beat E. Ill. by 27. Those 5 games add up to a plus 144 marginal points. Drop those out of our stats and we are nearly dead even in points scored. I suspect those 5 games may also distort our rebounds, TOs, etc margins.
Bottom line for me is that WSU HAS to get more rebounding, for both the men and the women. If we can find another 6'5" Don May, great, I'll take him. But more likely we need for the men to get 6 or 7 guys who are 6'6" to 6'10" with muscle and bulk, with some reasonable speed and quickness. I know they exist because I see them on the opposite end of the court in their warm ups. We will have a hard time winning with 8 guards.
I also think we need to improve on our 3 point shooting. Do those two things while maintaining what we are doing, and I think we can have success with any style of play.
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Post by raiders41 on Feb 17, 2014 14:08:03 GMT -5
You are looking at our overall record, I broke down our season based on how we played each game. We are now 4-9 when both teams score 60 points or more, but when we hold the opposing teams to under 60 points we are 10-2. Last year we were 4-5 when both teams were over 60 points and 17-3 when holding opposing teams under 60. When we play the style that Donlon wants to we win, when we start playing the opposing teams style we have a tendency to lose. The style is fine, execution this year is not. Last year the execution was there and we had one of the most successful seasons in our history since moving to DI First, you are still not making a good argument because we have not tried to play a true uptempo style of game all year so you do not know how we would do if we were trying to score 80 points a game because it hasn't happened. What has happened is we have played Billy ball and are currently right around .500. Second, last year was one of the most successful win/loss season we have ever had in large part because we played one of the shittiest schedules we have ever put together. The fact that this season's schedule is somehow shittier and we haven't been successful is mindboggling. Success isn’t always measured by wins and losses, and I wasn’t calling last season a success because we went 23-13. I was calling last season a success because for only the 5th time we made it to the conference championship game. Something nobody in the league or even right here was even thinking about before the season began. We then went on to get our 1st and 2nd post season wins, and fell one game short of the CBI championship game. Playing a soft schedule does not discredit the accomplishments this team made last year. I do agree with you that it is mind boggling that our current record does not match the schedule, the expectations, or even the talent that we have on this team. Raiders41, interesting stats. How do you know the execution isn't there this year? I don't think you can compare this years stats to last year's stats in a vacuum. The game is being called differently and overall scoring is up this year. For instance, through Feb. 14 last year our defense averaged giving up 58.8 points--That ranked us #25. This year, through Feb. 13, we're ranked 3 spots better at #22, but allow 62.2 points. For the same time period last year we averaged 19.0 fouls/game...which ranked us at #263. This year we're almost committing one more personal foul/game at 19.9 but rank at #232. The point I'm trying to make is, the game is being called differently this year--with an emphasis on hand checks, arm bars, and charges. That has led, on average, to more fouls being called and more free throw attempts and makes per game, which have in part led to higher average scores. So, everything is relative. Last year at this time our Defense was ranked #25 and our offense #268. This year our defense has improved to #22, but our relative offense ranking as sunk to #285 (all rankings are points per game averages). It is up to the coach to adapt and change his style of play to the way the game is being officiated. mrose, I like the stats that you brought up, and I forgot to take into consideration the new rules for this season. And yes I will agree it makes it tougher to compare seasons. But as we all Billy Ball is playing defense and limiting possessions, last season we averaged 63.5 possessions in games that we won (I left out the double OT game vs Green Bay, and if you take out if it wasn’t for the VMI (74) and Miami (74) that average drops down to 62.3) and we averaged 65.3 in games that we lost. Currently this season we are averaging 66 for games that we have won and 69.2 in games that we have lost. |
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Post by uptempo on Apr 4, 2014 21:44:47 GMT -5
just wanted to spin this off of the schedule thread because I found it to be interesting. Dr. J pounds the defense, defense, defense drum and others say that Donlon needs to adapt to the skills of the players he recruits. I don't understand why Donlon recruits guys like Davis, JY, was it Bo Bo , and other athletic kids, and then not utilize their talents effectively just because they don't fit his defensive scheme. Why recruit kids that haven't bought into your system?
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Post by uptempo on Apr 4, 2014 21:51:23 GMT -5
I do like the tough D that WSU plays. I don't think the offensive style of play allows WSU to be competitive otherwise. However, I don't understand why Donlon can't speed up the pace of the offense and work at being competitive on the offensive boards. To date Donlon's teams are not big enough to play other teams straight up, that's why they need to play 10 to 12 guys and wear the other teams down. Start by wearing the other teams out with our complex D, but I would also push the ball offensively so the bad guys can't catch their breath.
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Post by hhgreen on Apr 4, 2014 22:24:58 GMT -5
I don't think it is just uptempo everyone in section 205 and 206 believes the same thing. I just hope the kids we are getting will get what Donlon is trying to do and if they can't understand it or react correctly to that Donlon needs to play a more normal defensive scheme like a plain old 2-3 zone especially when we are in a good situation. Face it at least 2 or 3 of these new players are not going to get it right away and sit the bench all year unless he plays something less complex. I hope Donlon works on the full court press strategy a little better we looked pretty bad trying to do it this year a couple times.
On the Poll in the link it is pretty plain that most fans want a faster offensive game but the fans are not the coach. The coaching job is a dictatorship. A coach will not change their game because fans want to see it. Fans are paying customers though. Hopefully we never end up like YSU or Illinois-Chicago. We have more fans at their games when we play there than they do.
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Post by OG Raiderfan on Apr 5, 2014 12:16:40 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with the style of ball we play. The problem was the roster didn't fit the style well. We had too many guards that just couldn't shoot well from outside and not enough inside players that can hit the boards and post up. I don't remember hearing anyone complaining about the system the first 2 games of the HL tournament. Our guards were hitting shots and the offense looked good because of it. In the championship game, that all changed because our guards weren't hitting shots and the offense fell apart. It was the same system just the same problem we have had for the last 2 years. Our outside shooting has been very streaky.
I'm looking forward to next year. Our defense will be good. It doesn't matter who is on the team, Donlon will mold them into a good defensive team. Offensively, I think we are going to be much better. We have several guards that are really good shooters and a few really good slashers. We have already added some decent size for next year and Donlon is still trying really hard to add one more JUCO post player. If he is able to do that I think everyone is going to be happy with the team next year and we should exceed expectations.
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