|
Post by wsutommygun on Apr 2, 2014 12:38:24 GMT -5
Keith, you mean 6 straight years of getting to the conference championship game, winning 20, and getting at least one postseason win? And, have our fans hope for more? I'd say we'd be a pretty successful program that we could all be proud of. Cheers! ( that is a nice bar, indeed ).
|
|
|
Post by keithfromxenia on Apr 2, 2014 13:45:40 GMT -5
And not an ncaa invite in sight. Not even an nit. Yep, that is a pretty low bar. Maybe we could call you the runner-up fan. Now I am a huge believer in freedom of speech, so if you want to continue to talk about these piece of crap tournaments like they have meaning I cannot stop you. But anyone around this town had a perfect example this year of the poc tournament's true worth. Contrast the before game news coverage and post game coverage of our game with a Carolina team (first round of the cbi) and the ud/osu game ( first round of the ncaa, the real postseason). No comparison. Ask a casual local fan how ud did in the ncaa and they will know. Ask how we did in the cbi and they will say "what is a cbi?). So for most all fans except those desperate to paint a smiley face on wsu hoops like you, they know the difference and know the meaningless nature of the poc tournament.
|
|
|
Post by wsutommygun on Apr 2, 2014 14:13:08 GMT -5
Keith, I am pretty sure ( maybe even a scientific fact ) that in order to get the automatic bid, it helps being in the championship game. Maybe the two teams have to forfeit or be ineligible to move on. You can have all of the high hopes you want for the future but, what could possibly change between now and November that makes you think we can have some sort of do-over of the past season or two. You used to fuss about people being realistic, what happened? Not one single thing that was good? Suddenly you are a fan of that other team ( by the way, I'm not sure the casual fan will be fixated on UD this weekend...even the UDDN has figured it was time to move on ). The season is over. Could have better, could have been worse ( when you consider the history of Wright State basketball it was better than most ). There are 4 tournaments, no doubt NCAA is the best but, we tried that route for the first 25 years of D-1...talk about a low bar by accepting it as the only option. Since you have accepted that the OOC will be lousy, you won't be disappointed ( I know a few names but, only you can decide if they are worthy ). I can only hope you won't whine about some other school from now until the season. Go play golf and if you don't birdie every hole, give up the sport.
|
|
|
Post by hhgreen on Apr 2, 2014 14:38:03 GMT -5
I don't think Keith has fans following him on the golf course and paying to see him play. I could be wrong but doubt it. On the other hand people pay to watch WSU games and travel distances to watch them play so they are the ones that can complain that they want to see the bar higher. I do believe that Keith probably plays golf for the enjoyment of the game. The Raiders play in front of paying customers for their enjoyment and to make it to the Big Dance. If you ask the players they will say that it is their goal to win the League and go to the NCAA. If it is not, why do we have a 10,000 seat arena for? If the players just play for the enjoyment of the game they can go to a local park for a pick up game.
They are playing for the name on the jersey and the school should be expecting NCAA bids. If not why do we play the game at the college level. Raise the bar.
|
|
|
Post by wsutommygun on Apr 2, 2014 15:19:28 GMT -5
I think student-athletes work pretty darn hard and do the best they can to win every game. I'm sure some fans think it might be easier just to wait until the conference tournament to play hard. The season is over, we lost the championship and know we aren't getting an at-large bid. What's the goal at that point? You may not want players and coaches that don't have the NCAA as the goal, I don't want players and coaches that don't want to compete period. I was surprised a tournament wanted us because of the RPI so, it was a pleasant surprise to get invited before Selection Sunday. If I buy the premise that SOS was weak, we had a chance to play some teams that made the schedule look a little better. I was happy to follow the Raiders in the CBI and CIT these past two years. I can't imagine thinking it wasn't the NCAA so who cares. I cared. What does raise the bar mean? Wait to become a fan if we are in the NCAA tourney? Wouldn't it be a waste of time to go to any game until you know for sure ( and then you wouldn't get first dibs on team tickets ). We all want the same thing. I can just enjoy the journey and give them credit for top 3, championship game, 20 wins, postseason and a win. I don't wait until Selection Sunday to say, I didn't really look forward to games because they might lose some and not be called to play on. I'm really trying to see your point of view but, I admit I'm clueless.
|
|
|
Post by wsutommygun on Apr 2, 2014 15:29:39 GMT -5
Does anyone have any goals for the league for postseason? How many teams would you like to know were invited? The pecking order would be NCAA, NIT, CBI, and CIT. This year the top 5 went ( we were 3rd, lost in finals ). Would it bother you if we said ask someone else when teams below us accepted?
|
|
|
Post by jumbojimbo on Apr 2, 2014 19:13:16 GMT -5
Keep in mind that leagues like ours have been squeezed by the NCAA buying the NIT. Now conference champs who don't win their tourney get an automatic NIT bit, so the hand wringing about a team like Green Bay is a thing of the past. The selection committee can throw us a bone and say GB was one of the last 4 out, but that doesn't make it true. The new NIT gives an excuse to relegate us to the 1 bid group. And with conf champs going to the NIT that squeezes other teams out of the NIT. So now we're a 1 bid NCAA and a 1 bid NIT. And what used to be our NIT team is now in the CBI.
So we have to be realistic. Of course the goal is to win the conference, but that doesn't mean an NCAA bid unless it is the second year in a row. Which means the real goal is to win the conf tournament. Everything else is just prep for that.
Personally I disagree that playing a weak OOC schedule is good prep for that goal. And I agree the long term health of the program is not enhanced when fans can't get excited about the schedule. But, I also have to assume that Coach D thinks differently. People who imply otherwise are not being realistic, or fair to coach D.
|
|
|
Post by raiders93 on Apr 2, 2014 19:39:54 GMT -5
If only the Nutter Center could handle a big crowd. Our concessions need overhauling. They are slow and the lines go across the concourse making it difficult to walk around. I took two different couples who have never been to a game and they both commented on the slow service. I don't know if this keeps people away but it does not help. The blocking of the concourse is a real problem. I can't picture it immediately, but couldn't we (at least in a few locations) put stanchions to form a zig zag line to save concourse walking space?? I'm sure there are some sitting around the Nutter Center or elsewhere on campus. Even if there aren't, they're relatively inexpensive for the many headaches they would save customers.
|
|
|
Post by hhgreen on Apr 3, 2014 5:18:09 GMT -5
The reason we are a one bid league is we don't play enough good competition and win those games out of conference.
|
|
|
Post by wsutommygun on Apr 3, 2014 8:03:49 GMT -5
HHGreen, I think that is part of it but, the league would probably need a team that dominates within the conference to build up their resume. I think there were several pretty good teams...perhaps if GB had gone 16-0 it would have been enough. I'm not sure I buy the notion we are a one-bid league but, if we were to add 3 teams then I would be disappointed if anyone still thought that.
|
|
|
Post by mrose on Apr 3, 2014 10:52:43 GMT -5
It all depends on what programs are added. Simply adding to HL membership for the sake of addition won't increase the number of possible bids. It has to be quality programs. For instance, if IUPUI & IPFW are 2 of the 3 schools added then the HL will remain mostly a one bid league. Adding quality programs such as Belmont & Evansville would help increase the chance of the HL receiving an at-large bid.
|
|
|
Post by Raider3G on Apr 3, 2014 20:13:55 GMT -5
I'm curious, ecb123, about your take. From your last comment, I read it that playing in 4 conference championship games in 8 years with a chance to go to the NCAA means WSU is above average. That's 50% of the time. Above average in what regard? Schools like Vermont (3 of the last 5), Iona and Stony Brook (3 of the last 4), Weber State and Montana (4 of last 5), Robert Morris and Morgan State (5 of last 6 years), or Ohio's Powerhouse--Akron (7 of last 8) have been in their respective conference finals a higher percentage of time. If going to a conference game in 4 of the last 8 years and almost going to the dance in 3 of those 8 years makes us a "very very good program" does that mean Morgan State and Akron have superior programs to Wright State? Others have already pointed out how hard it is within any conference to be that much in contention on a consistent basis. The HL conference RPI is above the average for DI (ranging between 10-14 the last 8 years) and we're consistently in the top three in the conference during that time. A 63% winning percentage in HL play (including tournament) is not average. Somebody if they feel froggy can research other teams, but I would be HIGHLY surprised if that is not the top 3. I don't know enough about Morgan St. and Akron to say we are "superior" or not, but those are solid programs that I would not say are "average". Akron in particular is a damn good program. Not sure who made it, but a good point in this thread was about the NIT...it's not the same old NIT. It's been diluted, and as a result I don't think there is a major difference between teams in the NIT and the best teams from the CIT and CBI. The bottom line is those third tier tournaments, while pay to play, have made it longer than people predicted when they first started, and they are attracting largely solid programs. Mid-majors like WSU, Akron, CSU, Ohio, etc. are getting squeezed for bids in the NIT. I would not be surprised at all if in a few years the CBI is attracting teams whose composite RPI approaches that of the NIT---perhaps they already have (haven't crunched numbers). If so, the CIT will become a better tournament. Again, being chosen is not the same as paying to join the fun. But just as it's increasingly unfair to dismiss wins in the CBI and CIT...likewise, it's not right to play up those baby steps as major successes. But I do agree with your point...BD hasn't elevated the program...at best, it's treading water.
|
|
|
Post by mrose on Apr 10, 2014 23:52:27 GMT -5
Seriously, the NIT has been diluted? When comparing to 40 years ago, yes! It's all relative. Both tournies have expanded over the years, the NCAA more so. So, Today--Perhaps the NCAA more diluted. They both take only 1 (ONE) predetermined automatic qualifier per conference. The NCAA takes all the conference tournament winners plus Ivy league regular season winner. The NIT takes the regular season winner IF and only if they aren't the conference tourney champion and NOT an At-large NCAA pick. Barring injury or suspension which team is generally the "better team?"
This year Green Bay was in the NIT. If Texas Southern hadn't won the SWAC they would have watched the First Four and all other post-season tournaments from their comfy home in Houston.
Granted, there are some weaker teams (successful teams from weak conferences) now getting an AQ into the NIT, but the CIT/CBI take less successful teams from mainly mid (e.g., WSU) to low majors or weak teams from high-major conferences (e.g., Oregon State).
It would be interesting to see the avg. RPI for teams in the NIT vs CBI/CIT. Will those tournaments become better than the NIT? Doubtful. The NIT has second choice after the NCAA and RPI along with other objective criteria are used.
Plus, there are two other major hurdles the CBI/CIT have to leap to catch up to the NIT. 1) The CBI and CIT are PAY to Play tournaments. The NIT, like the NCAA, PAYS the participating schools and reimburses travel costs (up to a max., but it's set relatively reasonable--should pay for most charter flights and lodging). The further a schools advances in the NIT the more earned credit$ they receive. The further a school advances in the CBI/CIT the more they may have to $hell out. 2) Perception. Perception is reality and HUGE. Just ask IU. Dollars to donuts if IU received a NIT invite they would have said "yes." What did they say to their bid that wasn't a NIT invite?
|
|
|
Post by wsutommygun on Apr 11, 2014 7:32:26 GMT -5
I think Indiana received some criticism for their decision not to participate but, at 17-15 it is possible I wouldn't have chosen to go either. I have no idea if the NIT would have made a difference if Crean wasn't happy with the play at the end of the season. Big 10 teams have gone to the CBI in each of the past two seasons so, I'm not sure anyone would never say never. In the past I've heard schools say they would be happy to break even with the NIT ( WSU told me they broke even with the CBI...haven't talked to anyone about the CIT but, the games were on the road ). I'd worry more about perception of WSU fans and not try to compare myself with the Indiana Hoosiers. I think it would be a step forward for the program to know we can be in the postseason and trust that our fans will show up ( at least in numbers enough to pay the fee ).
If you talk about perception then you should know that some people would like the NCAA tournament to be only for the top 6 conferences. Doesn't matter what the mid-majors do...doesn't matter if the big name teams can't even muster a .500 conference record because they believe their worst teams would go undefeated in league play in any mid to low majors...doesn't matter how we have to work pretty darn hard to achieve something with virtually no margin for error.
I'm sure if you did a poll, some of our own fans would say it should be NCAA or NIT only. I've enjoyed the CBI and CIT and thought it helped to see some of those teams and made the overall schedule better.
|
|
|
Post by keithfromxenia on Apr 30, 2014 13:01:10 GMT -5
it is obvious that at least the raider fans on this board fall into one of two camps. they are either like tommygun, satisfied with second place finishes, 20 win seasons, rpis of 125-225 and visits to the cbi/cit or they fall into the hhgreen, mrose and kfx camp of believing that this program should be in the ncaa regularly, competing for at large bids to the ncaa, winning the league more than once per decade and top 75 or so rpi. i am curious as to how the majority of the remaining raider fans feel about those expectation levels but we may never know.
i do give tommygun credit for one thing. i think his expectation/satisfaction level closely mimics that of the program from the top, the very top, right down to our athletic administration not including the players. i do not think including coaches either. the recent extension tells me that wsu is satisfied with what has transpired the past few years and will be happy if it continues.
what is interesting is where this level of performance has gotten us. we have a deteriorating fan base, no doubt losing some season ticket holders in the coming year due to scheduling and performance. we have a beautiful arena that for many non con games, when the camera panned the seats found way more empty than full. we have tarps over seats to try to make the arena look less empty. we have a coach's radio show that we can't even get on the danged radio. we have our radio station telling us that all they can sell sponsorships for is the game, 15" before and 15" after. no post game radio show with scott or anything else. all this as a result of this program performing just the way tommygun likes it.
actually i would like to address some of those silly arguments you made in this post but it would require writing a novel so i think i will pass. but i will say that recognizing that the team aross town actually accomplishes something while we frittered away a season does not make me a fan, but i do admire the accomplishment. interesting that mid majors do that stuff all the time, just not our mid major.
|
|