|
Post by Hoops Junkie on Apr 10, 2014 20:40:51 GMT -5
Sounds like the HL will be discussing moving the tournament to a neutral site in the future. The article is on page 11 of the link below link
|
|
|
Post by wsutommygun on Apr 10, 2014 21:26:45 GMT -5
There was also an article about scheduling on another page. I'm happier about bringing up that subject more. I believe we tried a neutral site before and even with 2 Chicago teams I don't think we drew that well ( at what is the former Rosemont Horizon ). I understand their concern about knowing ahead of time for corporate sponsorships but, I doubt we would draw anywhere near as many fans. The place they talk about in Indy is at the fairgrounds, I believe ( not used by any college team that I know of and obviously there is currently no HL team in the city ). I wish we could draw well enough for it to make sense but, I think it would be a mistake. I don't have a problem with discussing it ( I'd rather they spent time discussing expansion and not worry about something that isn't broken ). I would say that from our perspective, knowing that it might be in Indy for a few years might be the next best thing to hosting.
|
|
|
Post by Nutt House on Apr 10, 2014 21:37:43 GMT -5
I think it would be a huge mistake to change the current format for 2 reasons.
1. We went to this format so the HL's championship game looked good on ESPN. We have huge crowds with our current format. We will play in a 2/3 empty arena if we go to a neutral site.
2. The current format makes the whole HL season worth playing for to get the home court advantage and buys. If the tournament is played at a neutral site, it takes away the importance of the whole regular season.
|
|
|
Post by mrose on Apr 10, 2014 22:44:16 GMT -5
I don't really get Tom Crowley's stated relevance of the Big East being contracted to MSG though 2026 to that of the Horizon League's situation. That's not comparing apples-to-apples and hopefully people in the HL and WSU understand the difference and aren't that delusional.
The HL can NOT use past Big East tournament experience as a model for success. The old Big East was the exception--and when they entered into a long-term contract. * Large Media Market. * Extensive media promotion during the regular season via ESPN. *LARGE and ACTIVE alumni in the NYC area for most member institutions. * Conference typically having multiple top 25 teams. * Many Member institutions playing in NBA or NBA-like arenas and filling or mostly filling up their arenas for conference games. * Madison Square Garden--the Mecca of basketball.
See the similarities with the old Big East and the current day Horizon league in locking in long-term contracts with Pepsi Arena (Indiana Fairgrounds)? There are none.
Though smaller, having the tournament at Hara Arena would draw a larger attendance.
It's not about how close you can have the conference tournament to the conference's HQ. If that were the case the Big 10 wouldn't be in Indy, the A-10 in NYC, the ACC in NYC or DC, the Mountain West Conference in Las Vegas, etc.
It's about having fan support and in particular fans showing up at the arena for good TV presentation when the home team isn't in the final. Hell, people in Indy didn't show up for Butler games when they were in the National Rankings or coming off a National Championship game. Aside from their respective traveling fan base, why do people in the HL think people would show up for a Milwaukee/Wright State game in Indy??
I get the corporate sponsorship challenge and the need for adequate time to prepare. Those are legitimate issues. Are 2, 3, 4, 5 year contracts doable and reasonable? Yes. Referencing the New Big East's contract thru 2026, hilarious.
If the HL is going to look for a permanent place I highly suggest the community leaders and WSU admin. push Dayton. It could be the Nutter Center. If not that, Hara. I strongly believe no other community currently in the HL would embrace and support the HL tourney more than Dayton, whether or not Wright State is a high seed.
It's funny how things go full circle and then around and around again. Beating higher seeds on a host's home court were/are frowned upon and then everybody seems to chime in how "unfair" it is to host the tournament (eg., Beating X). Then we have situations where UIC and Loyola play a game in Cleveland and the stands (empty!) look like no one within 1,500 miles is aware of the game! The latter wouldn't happen in Dayton...Nutter or Hara.
Heck, the MWC plays their tournament on a campus site...UNLV. Why not here?
Hopefully the HL and especially the folks at WSU give strong thought before agreeing to an off-site location for the HL tourney. Is that the right action--possibly, but the HL will never be the BE of old or even a current day MVC in St. Louis.
|
|
|
Post by Raider Alumni on Apr 11, 2014 7:09:44 GMT -5
Heck, the MWC plays their tournament on a campus site...UNLV. Why not here? The rest of the HL is not going to pick Dayton as a NEUTRAL site for the HL tournament. The only reason the MWC lets UNLV host is because they are located in Las Vegas which is a destination city. I don't see the HL collectively giving the home court advantage to any team in the conference by letting them host. We either stick with the current format where teams earn the right to host or we play at a true neutral court where attendance will be pathetic.
|
|
|
Post by raiders41 on Apr 11, 2014 8:11:21 GMT -5
I think it would be a huge mistake to change the current format for 2 reasons. 1. We went to this format so the HL's championship game looked good on ESPN. We have huge crowds with our current format. We will play in a 2/3 empty arena if we go to a neutral site. 2. The current format makes the whole HL season worth playing for to get the home court advantage and buys. If the tournament is played at a neutral site, it takes away the importance of the whole regular season. Took the words right out of my mout... The system is perfect the way it is. And like you said it gives the season so much more meaning to it. This was the first time since the HL has switched to this format where the 1 seed has not made it to the championship. And even if the distance is a problem, we just proved that it is possible to move the game to a campus completely on the other side of the conference map and make it work. This is not a league that is going to pull fans in from outside of this conference. We barely pull in fans from our own fanbases until the championship game.
|
|
|
Post by wolf41 on Apr 11, 2014 12:01:27 GMT -5
All good comments. Now I will muddy the waters, but not intentionally.
1. One issue would be to drop the #9 team from the tournament while we have a nine team league. Yes, it is nice to include the #9 team in the league play-offs, but if you are rewarding the top 3 teams for their seasons why not give the #9 team a demerit for being 9th? Coping with 8 teams is easier than 9.
2. Follow that up with 4 first round games at the highest seeds getting to host each game. Do the second round in the same manner, as well as the third round. Giving a home team a home court advantage is a HUGE break for them. I personally have never cared for the bys offered under the current scheme. Yes, that puts a workload on the highest remaining seed, but why play on Tuesday night? The HL has all of that week, so why not use some of that for preparation. The programs should already be available. A plan should be ready for each school in advance for tasks they will need to address. And its not like we have never sold tickets before or had to get tickets to season ticket holders. And holding the Nutter schedule open for a week at most, from major events, is something that can be done.
Using the home courts of the highest seeds maximizes the income for these games. That's not to be sneezed at.
3. My first thought for a common site was Indy. My second idea would be Columbus Ohio. We have 3 HL teams in Ohio and Columbus is very central to all of them, though YSU may argue that. Given a choice, they would opt for Cleveland. There are 2 teams in Michigan in the area of Detroit and in Green Bay, To me Wisconsin is too remote for a common site. We could re-visit the issue should the HL expand. If we add teams from KY that makes Ohio an even better choice. If we add teams from Indiana that would add them as a consideration. Adding Indiana State and Evansville would also give them 3 schools and Indy would become very viable.
I, for one, always liked to be the host school as we attended every game. I'm older now, so I might not do that on the first day unless WSU had an afternoon game, but I would attend every day.
But in any case, I can't imagine any school will complain about their workload when they have to host a game or more.
|
|
|
Post by wsutommygun on Apr 11, 2014 12:55:32 GMT -5
I favor at least twice as many teams being in the big dance so, I would be opposed to not letting everyone in the conference tournament. As things stand now ( UWM ) there will be only 8 teams in the HL tourney. I don't like the idea of doing away with byes and I don't like the idea of extra travel by staying at campus sites unless you throw in an extra day to do it...if it is done for corporate sponsorship then they'll want to have as many games at the finals site as possible ( I would think ).
|
|
|
Post by wsutommygun on Apr 11, 2014 15:33:11 GMT -5
Whatever the HL does next year wouldn't necessarily mean any changes for the future but, is there any chance that any potential new teams might like the current set-up? Maybe that would be another reason to hold off any talks on changing the tourney format?
|
|
|
Post by Dr J on Apr 11, 2014 19:59:43 GMT -5
We have the largest arena, so for the tournament it becomes a neutral court and each team gets an equal share of tickets that go from court side to the top. The tickets are for all games of the tournament. If your team loses can turn in to get donation for tax deduction but no refunds. If a school doesn't sell their tickets then are available for other schools. I think at most of the neutral site tournaments it is done that way. But I would prefer each game played at school with the highest seed. Overall attendance would be better.
|
|
|
Post by Bomber on Apr 11, 2014 20:11:30 GMT -5
You guys really need to read the article. The HL is looking at going to a neutral site for the HL tournament. The Nutter Center is not a neutral site. It is not an option for what they will be discussing.
|
|
|
Post by wolf41 on Apr 12, 2014 8:10:42 GMT -5
How many fans, say from the team in 9th place, attend the 8th vs 9th tournament game each year? How many fans from both schools attend the game? How many times has a 9th place team won the HL tournament?
|
|
|
Post by wsutommygun on Apr 12, 2014 8:48:59 GMT -5
I don't think you want to go there, Wolf41. That makes it sound like it's more about the money than the student-athlete. If you want to get into something that subjective, you know there are people on this board that would look at other likely match-ups...some might think the league wastes its time by sending someone to the big dance with anything less than a 12 seed. If we were in the 8-9 contest, I know some that would be there. Anyway, I think it depends on who the 8-9 match-up would be but, the game could be in an auxiliary gym and I'd still say they are part of the league and deserve a chance to compete for the automatic bid. ( They'd likely end up in a play-in game versus another 16 seed but, who knows ).
|
|
|
Post by wsuraider09 on Apr 12, 2014 12:02:09 GMT -5
For the league, it is about the money...and when Butler left, we lost a huge revenue generator. It would be an embarrassment (for a league that doesn't travel well) to have a national televised conference championship game, with 3000 people in attendance. Because, let's face it, that's what would happen. Move the game to Indy, and you get a few bus fulls of fans for that last game...think of what Bankers Life would like with 3000 fans in it. I think it looks a lot better for the league, it's finances, AND future recruits to show a packed house.
Look at attendance the last 10 years of championship games
2014 @ WSU 7784 (not the 1 seed) 2013 @ Valpo 4457 (1 seed) 2012 @ Valpo 4258 (1 seed) 2011 @ Milwaukee 10,437 (1 seed) 2010 @ Butler (1 seed) 6065 2009 @ Butler (1 seed) 5107 2008 @ Butler (1 seed) 5021 2007 @ WSU (1 seed) 10,686 2006 @ Milwaukee (1 seed) 10,021 2005 @ Milwaukee 10,783
First thing you look at is that Valpo and Bulter can't draw for championship games, and that WSU and Milwaukee sure can. Keep in mind the ARC at Valpo only seats 5k...and these Milwaukee games were played at US Cellular which seats around 10,700. So they put a butt in nearly every seat as did Valpo and WSU. But what's up with Butler...a 11,000 seat arena and not even getting half full?
Yeah Horizon League, let's play the tournament in Indy. That makes sense. Since we had the game there 3 years in a row and Butler was NATIONALLY ranked, and didn't ever crack 6100. Think of what it would be now when there isn't even a school there. It's 2 hours for both WSU and Valpo to Indy..and more for everybody else.
One other note: In this research I realized that only WSU, Milwaukee, and Valpo (of current members) have hosted in the last 10 years...and YSU, UIC, Green Bay haven't appeared in the final in 10 years.
|
|
|
Post by Raider Alumni on Apr 12, 2014 12:16:44 GMT -5
The only argument in that article that makes any sense is about getting sponsors and I don't buy that either. The HL should be able to sell ad space to sponsors no matter where the tournament is played. These sponsors want their brand seen by fans at the arenas, but more importantly on ESPN during our championship game. You think a sponsor would prefer the current format even though they do not know where the game will be played until the last minute. The current format means more fans will see their ads at the arena and their sponsorship will look better on ESPN because the game will be played in front of a full house.
The HL needs to pull it's head out of it's butt and stop messing with thing that don't need changed and focus on HL expansion. That should be priority #1, #2, #3, #4, etc, etc for this conference. The HL tournament format should be something like priority #125.
|
|