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Post by bballraider on Jan 21, 2011 15:29:22 GMT -5
Raider Grad, that win didn't put us in the official top-100. Through Sunday's game WSU was #106. Beating YSU (#243) won't move the Raiders up but a fraction (if that) only because it was a road game. Now, if we can get a win vs. a top 30 team (CSU #27) that will surely move us up into the top-100. www.ncaa.com/rankings/basketball-men/d1It depends on what rpi you are looking at and how often the rankings are updated. Because this game was on the road it didn't hurt us. plus the other factors in the rpi are still fluid at this point. I think when we play YSU at home our rpi probably will go down even if we win, but at least they are much higher that most seasons past when they were at the bottom of D1. realtimerpi has us at #98 www.realtimerpi.com/rpi_horiz_Men.htmlwarren nolan rpi has us at #98 also WarrenNolan.com/basketball/2011/rpi
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Post by mrose on Jan 21, 2011 20:19:43 GMT -5
But, bballraider, at the end of the day, there is only ONE RPI that counts. It is the NCAA's. It is that RPI that is used in selecting NCAA (at-large) and NIT participants and the seeding of those teams. Because of a claim (valid) the NCAA wasn't transparent about their process a few years ago they decided to start releasing their RPI weekly beginining in January of each season.
What I find interesting is the debate about playing non Div I teams. Don't get me wrong, I understand the logic and how it can "help" the RPI. But, don't you find it strange the NCAA in their offical RPI has the record played against non D1 teams in their rankings? No other RPI rankings does that. Do you think if the last invite to the NIT comes down to two teams with nearly identical RPI's they'll give the nod to the team that played all D1 schools?
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Post by Jazzfan on Jan 21, 2011 20:23:03 GMT -5
But, bballraider, at the end of the day, there is only ONE RPI that counts. It is the NCAA's. It is that RPI that is used in selecting NCAA (at-large) and NIT participants and the seeding of those teams. Because of a claim (valid) the NCAA wasn't transparent about their process a few years ago they decided to start releasing their RPI weekly beginining in January of each season. What I find interesting is the debate about playing non Div I teams. Don't get me wrong, I understand the logic and how it can "help" the RPI. But, don't you find it strange the NCAA in their offical RPI has the record played against non D1 teams in their rankings? No other RPI rankings does that. Do you think if the last invite to the NIT comes down to two teams with nearly identical RPI's they'll give the nod to the team that played all D1 schools? Hey Sherlock, all of those RPI sites have the same numbers. The official NCAA site uses the same numbers, they just haven't updated their site yet. We ARE in the top 100.
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Post by Raider Grad on Jan 21, 2011 20:32:52 GMT -5
Raider Grad, that win didn't put us in the official top-100. Through Sunday's game WSU was #106. Beating YSU (#243) won't move the Raiders up but a fraction (if that) only because it was a road game. Now, if we can get a win vs. a top 30 team (CSU #27) that will surely move us up into the top-100. www.ncaa.com/rankings/basketball-men/d1You are neglecting what happened to all of the teams we have already played this year. Your RPI is 1/4(your winning percentage) + 1/2(your opponent's winning percentage) + 1/4(your opponent's opponent's winning percentage) Only 1/4 of the equation has anything to do with what WSU does on the court. 1/2 of the equation is based on how well the teams we have played in the past are doing and 1/4 is based on how well the teams they have played are doing. If you look at the sites that are updated daily you would know that our RPI usually fluctuated by 1 to 5 spots every day regardless to if we have played a game that day or not.
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Post by mrose on Jan 21, 2011 21:27:28 GMT -5
Jazzfan, ratings aren't ratings. If all RPI sites use the same formula explain how Butler is #46 in Sagarin's ELO_CHESS (RPI) www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/bkt1011.htm #26 in Real Time realtimerpi.com/rpi_Men.html #45 in Pomroy's www.kenpom.com/ and #26 in Nolan's warrennolan.com/basketball/2011/rpi all after yesterday's games. Obviously 2 calculations use similar formulas yet differnent from the other two similar formulas. Fluctuations continuoulsy occur and good road victories help. But as more games are played (collectivley) those fluctuations are smoothed out. Butler was #26 in two of today's RPI's, this week's NCAA ratings, and last week's NCAA ratings. Beating a sub 200 Detroit team and losing to a 100-ish team on the road didn't affect their ratings. Valpo beat two teams on the road last week, with much better RPI's than YSU, and moved up 10 spots (NCAA) to 48...Today they are #45 in 3 of the "current" services. Trust me, WSU didn't move up 8 spots, in the offical ratings, last night by beating Youngstown State. And yes, I know .75% comes from either our opponents or their opponent's win-losses, but by now those games start to wash each other out.
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Post by rock70 on Jan 21, 2011 21:43:49 GMT -5
Jazzfan, ratings aren't ratings. If all RPI sites use the same formula explain how Butler is #46 in Sagarin's ELO_CHESS (RPI) www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/bkt1011.htm #26 in Real Time realtimerpi.com/rpi_Men.html #45 in Pomroy's www.kenpom.com/ and #26 in Nolan's www.kenpom.com/ all after yesterday's games. Obviously 2 calculations use similar formulas yet differnent from the other two. Fluctuations continuoulsy occur and good road victories help. But as more games are played (collectivley) those fluctuations are smoothed out. Butler was #26 in two of today's RPI's, this week's NCAA ratings, and last week's NCAA ratings. Beating a sub 200 Detroit team and losing to a 100-ish team on the road didn't affect their ratings. Valpo beat two teams on the road last week, with much better RPI's than YSU, and moved up 10 spots (NCAA) to 48...Today they are #45 in 3 of the "current" services. Trust me, WSU didn't move up 8 spots, in the offical ratings, last night by beating Youngstown State. And yes, I know .75% comes from either our opponents or their opponent's win-losses, but by now those games start to wash each other out. mrose, The NCAA site shows us with 12 wins does this mean that they still haven't calculated the YSU game into the equation? How do you explain the 12 wins ( we are at 13 )? Unless I'm mistaken the other two site have calculated the YSU win in already. thanks
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Post by mrose on Jan 21, 2011 21:47:58 GMT -5
These NCAA RPI's are thru last Sunday. The next release of official RPI's, early next week, will include both the YSU game and hopefully a CSU win....
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Post by rock70 on Jan 21, 2011 21:51:04 GMT -5
These NCAA RPI's are thru last Sunday. The next release of official RPI's, early next week, will include both the YSU game and hopefully a CSU win.... So the NCAA RPI is not current correct? Thanks
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Post by bballraider on Jan 21, 2011 21:56:53 GMT -5
But, bballraider, at the end of the day, there is only ONE RPI that counts. It is the NCAA's. It is that RPI that is used in selecting NCAA (at-large) and NIT participants and the seeding of those teams. Because of a claim (valid) the NCAA wasn't transparent about their process a few years ago they decided to start releasing their RPI weekly beginining in January of each season. What I find interesting is the debate about playing non Div I teams. Don't get me wrong, I understand the logic and how it can "help" the RPI. But, don't you find it strange the NCAA in their offical RPI has the record played against non D1 teams in their rankings? No other RPI rankings does that. Do you think if the last invite to the NIT comes down to two teams with nearly identical RPI's they'll give the nod to the team that played all D1 schools? I do not think any of us know what happens at the end of the Day with anything the NCAA does. I believe the NCAA uses College Basketball New's RPI, so to me that is the one that matters. They created the formula. That is the one the NCAA publishes and it is only updated weekly at this time. The other two sites that I listed use the same basic formulas and show daily updates, although the entire formula has never been completely revealed to the public. I am not trying to get in a pssng match, but I do not think you should just immediately throw out other sites RPI ratings just because it is not on the NCAA site. Let the fans have their fun. Typically by Sunday they are all within 1 spot of each other, so yes we are probably currently in the top 100, but that could change by Sunday's listing with all the games between now and then. CBN's site does not list D2 games like the NCAA site does. I think the NCAA does that just to show entire schedules of their teams, and D2 losses probably hurt a lot more than just playing a D2 school. But if you play too many D2 schools then it can really affect outsiders views of your program. I am not a fan of playing D2 games, but I understand the Coach's stance that the HL's tie breaking steps made it a factor. Yes it comes into play during Selection Sunday, but from all the mock selection committees that the NCAA has held, RPI is not the defacto rating service used, the members said they look at everything available to them, including all the non-rpi ratings services like Sagarin's you listed earlier, and non-D1 games i am sure. The Horizon League's tie breaker uses the CBN's site as its tiebreaker when all other tiebreakers are exhausted, and I will repeat that their site does not include D2 games. www.horizonleague.org/blog/mens-basketball-tournament-seeding-tiebreaker-2009-10-22-26496.htmlCBN's site: www.rpiratings.com/mensrpi.htmlP.S. Everybody has their own favorite rating system to go by. My favorite is the Pomerory ratings on Kenpom.com's because it takes into account more than just wins, losses and margin of victory. It also looks at other stats such as pace and equating each teams stats to the same pace. Right now Pomeroy has us rated at exactly 100. Our number became worse by quite a number of spots with the win at YSU. kenpom.com/team.php?team=Wright%20St.
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