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Post by Big D on Feb 19, 2023 18:48:51 GMT -5
We will probably finish the year around .500. If we would have finished the year 31-0, it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference on if Trey stays or goes. It's the new era of college sports. Mid-major coaching jobs used to be a stepping stone for a coach to get a major conference job. Now it's the players that are using us to get to a program where they can get paid. We don't have much of a chance to keep players long term when schools like Ohio State are offering our star players 6 figure sums of money to leave. It's a problem for a coach like Nagy that wants to red-shirt and develop players and doesn't like to sign transfers. He is either going to have to adapt or the game is going to pass him by.
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Post by beatud on Feb 19, 2023 18:58:37 GMT -5
Exactly what I have been saying. Who is going to lead the team when he's gone? Are we really going to put all our faith in the freshmen next year? Yes, enjoy what we have while we have it. Yes enjoy Trey Calvin and his greatness. But damn you have to look to the future eventually and it's not looking good unless we somehow land an impactful guard via transfer. Even if Trey comes back, he is going to need some help day one. I think what did it for me is the most recent radio show. Nagy made a comment about not switching his recruiting of freshman and having them stay in the program. That doesn’t happen anymore. If he’s unwilling to change, I’m unwilling to pay my money. I don't think transfers (especially not from other D1 schools) are the solution. Here's our current roster:
Transfers: Davis, Finke, Sisley, Wilbourn Recruited as freshman: Braun, Calvin, Huibregtse, Noel, Norris, Welage
I think it should be obvious which of those two groups contributes more (especially when you consider that 3/4 transfers are seniors and 4/6 of the second group are freshman/sophomores). I agree that we need to use the transfer portal, but it can't be the primary method for building a roster. Or if it is, we need to make a lot of changes to the transfers we recruit. We don't want to become Detroit Mercy.
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Post by Raider Fanatic on Feb 19, 2023 19:05:44 GMT -5
I agree that we need to use the transfer portal, but it can't be the primary method for building a roster. Or if it is, we need to make a lot of changes to the transfers we recruit. We don't want to become Detroit Mercy. It seems to be working out quite well for Milwaukee in their first season with their new coach. |
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Post by refrigeratorraider on Feb 19, 2023 19:18:44 GMT -5
I agree that we need to use the transfer portal, but it can't be the primary method for building a roster. Or if it is, we need to make a lot of changes to the transfers we recruit. We don't want to become Detroit Mercy. It seems to be working out quite well for Milwaukee in their first season with their new coach. I think Milwaukee is the exception to the rule. I also think they are not as good as their record indicates. I think even according the metrics, such as KenPom they are one of the luckiest teams in the country. 8 of their 12 Horizon wins are by 5 points or less. The transfer portal is good to try to fill holes or a good player that fits the system, but it would be a bad idea to constantly rely on it. |
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Post by beatud on Feb 19, 2023 19:45:55 GMT -5
I agree that we need to use the transfer portal, but it can't be the primary method for building a roster. Or if it is, we need to make a lot of changes to the transfers we recruit. We don't want to become Detroit Mercy. It seems to be working out quite well for Milwaukee in their first season with their new coach. Most of their best players came from JUCOs. This is also how Cleveland State had success with Gates. I don't think the Milwaukee and Cleveland State rosters were the reasons for their successes though. I also don't have any problems JUCO players, but I'm not sure if that is very different from our current approach of recruiting from high school and red-shirting. If they have a good season or two, they can just move up to a better school.
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Post by kingnebwsu on Feb 19, 2023 19:55:59 GMT -5
This season feels like a new reality in the NIL/ transfer portal world of college athletics.
I really hope I'm overreacting but seeing any sort of continuity at the low-major level feels even more impossible than before.
That buzzer beater was a dagger. Will take a miracle for this team to make a March run.
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Post by wsuraider12 on Feb 19, 2023 20:00:46 GMT -5
If Trey does transfer out, which is completely reasonable of him, I think it may be time to stop my season tickets. If you plan on stop following a mid-major team in the instant transfer/NIL era every time a good player leaves then you need to stop following mid-major basketball. Okay, I’m saying I agree. That’s the reality and we don’t adjust. I’ll stop following. |
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Post by wsuraider09 on Feb 19, 2023 20:04:34 GMT -5
I'm worried about the long term ramifications of Nagy refusing to get with the times in regards to player development and managing the transfer portal. I always enjoy reading the meltdowns on other boards and being so glad we have an AD that seems to pour his heart into this sport and confidently having nothing to worry about.... but continuing to ignore the impacts of the transfer portal will sink this program faster than the Titanic...and it seems like we're headed right towards the iceberg.
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Post by wsuraider12 on Feb 19, 2023 20:04:35 GMT -5
We will probably finish the year around .500. If we would have finished the year 31-0, it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference on if Trey stays or goes. It's the new era of college sports. Mid-major coaching jobs used to be a stepping stone for a coach to get a major conference job. Now it's the players that are using us to get to a program where they can get paid. We don't have much of a chance to keep players long term when schools like Ohio State are offering our star players 6 figure sums of money to leave. It's a problem for a coach like Nagy that wants to red-shirt and develop players and doesn't like to sign transfers. He is either going to have to adapt or the game is going to pass him by. You’re exactly right. There has been a major shift in college athletics. Not just for small and mid majors, but everyone. You can’t deny NIL has changed things. You either adjust or you don’t, but it will show soon enough if you don’t. |
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Post by raiders93 on Feb 20, 2023 8:35:58 GMT -5
I watched portions of the replay and many of tue suspect calls were just as egregious on the broadcast as they appeared to be from the stands. Those guys sucked.
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Post by wsuwillie on Feb 20, 2023 9:07:27 GMT -5
I just want to say that the following comments are not intended to counter-point the transfer and redshirt philosophy mentioned previously.
We didn't lose due to our opponent being more-athletic...even though they probably are/were. We didn't lose because they had better players...even if they did.
We lost because we had a guy play 30 minutes - and less than normal at that - and scored ZERO points on 0-7 shooting with (3) turnovers. 30 minutes when it's been painfully obvious all year long that the guy cannot score. (2) of the 0-7 were on one possession...so that's (9) possessions with no points...none. The +/- has to be crazy negative.
We lost for the second time on an opponent's buzzer beater because we allowed the recipient of the inbounds pass to run un-guarded until they released their game-winning shot. Force one little hesitation upon receipt of the ball and we probably stop them from getting off the last shot in time.
At the end of the first half we clawed back in it with Calvin/Hube/Welage/Noel/Braun...we never saw that lineup again the rest of the game. It's almost like we are allergic to lineups that score more points than the opponent...or we are trying to make a very futile, stubborn point.
Give (5) of Finke's minutes to Welage...(5) to Sisley...and (5) to Braun. The odds are terrific that we get at least (2) points out of that (15) minutes.
I had zero emotion when that last shot when in...I just shook my head. I'm beginning to not care...which is remarkable for a diehard who plans his life around being able to watch them play. It's one thing to have a bad team and/or bad players who are ALL out-matched. It's another thing altogether to watch the continued pounding of square pegs into round holes. It was painfully obvious at home against NKU which lineup is the most effective...and by the time the next game rolled around, we went right back to the pre-NKU-success lineups.
The transfer stubbornness is an issue...the red-shirt stubbornness is an issue...not playing the most-effective lineup/players is a glaring, most-problematic issue. Early in the year when we were awful...we had Finke, Davis and Norris in the starting lineup. One of those guys didn't score in 30 minutes yesterday...one guy didn't play...one guy should not have. Groundhog Day.
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Post by Dr J on Feb 20, 2023 9:28:13 GMT -5
I just want to say that the following comments are not intended to counter-point the transfer and redshirt philosophy mentioned previously. We didn't lose due to our opponent being more-athletic...even though they probably are/were. We didn't lose because they had better players...even if they did. We lost because we had a guy play 30 minutes - and less than normal at that - and scored ZERO points on 0-7 shooting with (3) turnovers. 30 minutes when it's been painfully obvious all year long that the guy cannot score. (2) of the 0-7 were on one possession...so that's (9) possessions with no points...none. The +/- has to be crazy negative. We lost for the second time on an opponent's buzzer beater because we allowed the recipient of the inbounds pass to run un-guarded until they released their game-winning shot. Force one little hesitation upon receipt of the ball and we probably stop them from getting off the last shot in time. At the end of the first half we clawed back in it with Calvin/Hube/Welage/Noel/Braun...we never saw that lineup again the rest of the game. It's almost like we are allergic to lineups that score more points than the opponent...or we are trying to make a very futile, stubborn point. Give (5) of Finke's minutes to Welage...(5) to Sisley...and (5) to Braun. The odds are terrific that we get at least (2) points out of that (15) minutes. I had zero emotion when that last shot when in...I just shook my head. I'm beginning to not care...which is remarkable for a diehard who plans his life around being able to watch them play. It's one thing to have a bad team and/or bad players who are ALL out-matched. It's another thing altogether to watch the continued pounding of square pegs into round holes. It was painfully obvious at home against NKU which lineup is the most effective...and by the time the next game rolled around, we went right back to the pre-NKU-success lineups. The transfer stubbornness is an issue...the red-shirt stubbornness is an issue...not playing the most-effective lineup/players is a glaring, most-problematic issue. Early in the year when we were awful...we had Finke, Davis and Norris in the starting lineup. One of those guys didn't score in 30 minutes yesterday...one guy didn't play...one guy should not have. Groundhog Day. I agree, it is not Finke’s fault but the coach who doesn’t recognize when a player is having an off day. I haven’t seen a Nagy coached team that is defensively ready for an end of the game play. It is a part of situation coaching. It has happened in the past, so I don’t expect it to change. |
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Post by Raider3G on Feb 20, 2023 9:50:55 GMT -5
I just want to say that the following comments are not intended to counter-point the transfer and redshirt philosophy mentioned previously. We didn't lose due to our opponent being more-athletic...even though they probably are/were. We didn't lose because they had better players...even if they did. We lost because we had a guy play 30 minutes - and less than normal at that - and scored ZERO points on 0-7 shooting with (3) turnovers. 30 minutes when it's been painfully obvious all year long that the guy cannot score. (2) of the 0-7 were on one possession...so that's (9) possessions with no points...none. The +/- has to be crazy negative. We lost for the second time on an opponent's buzzer beater because we allowed the recipient of the inbounds pass to run un-guarded until they released their game-winning shot. Force one little hesitation upon receipt of the ball and we probably stop them from getting off the last shot in time. At the end of the first half we clawed back in it with Calvin/Hube/Welage/Noel/Braun...we never saw that lineup again the rest of the game. It's almost like we are allergic to lineups that score more points than the opponent...or we are trying to make a very futile, stubborn point. Give (5) of Finke's minutes to Welage...(5) to Sisley...and (5) to Braun. The odds are terrific that we get at least (2) points out of that (15) minutes. I had zero emotion when that last shot when in...I just shook my head. I'm beginning to not care...which is remarkable for a diehard who plans his life around being able to watch them play. It's one thing to have a bad team and/or bad players who are ALL out-matched. It's another thing altogether to watch the continued pounding of square pegs into round holes. It was painfully obvious at home against NKU which lineup is the most effective...and by the time the next game rolled around, we went right back to the pre-NKU-success lineups. The transfer stubbornness is an issue...the red-shirt stubbornness is an issue...not playing the most-effective lineup/players is a glaring, most-problematic issue. Early in the year when we were awful...we had Finke, Davis and Norris in the starting lineup. One of those guys didn't score in 30 minutes yesterday...one guy didn't play...one guy should not have. Groundhog Day. I never understood how Sisley can't get more minutes. He can shoot from the outside and won't get better sitting. You raise great points. This team has the talent to win the league...but Nagy and staff haven't figured out their roster minutes 29 games in. I had the same non-emotional reaction watching the end. At this point, constantly reading Coach comments on how it's his fault but to see that followed up in the next game with no sustained change is ridiculous and signals to me that he really doesn't think anything needs to change. The only silver lining is that four of the five guys from the lineup that has been the most successful are back. But will he play those people the minutes they deserve? Or are we gearing up for another .500, 5th place or lower finish. |
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Post by ohiopirate on Feb 20, 2023 11:26:03 GMT -5
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Post by wsuraider09 on Feb 20, 2023 13:25:19 GMT -5
Here's the video from Twitter (of course, #1 play on SC, and the second time we've been on the wrong end of a SC Top 10 play this season). Notice that our defensive alignment kept absolutely nobody guarding the inbounder or Chong Qui. We let them get a 10' pass off and let Damion dribble 30' before he was guarded. I'd be real tempted to ask Nagy how he drew that masterpiece up tonight at the coach's show if I lived in Dayton. As someone else pointed out earlier, guarding the shooter in the back court makes that a must deeper and much more contested shot...but as usual, we went with the "do nothing" approach.
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